23/09/18 - 18:54 PM


Author Topic: Pairings: What to do With Them?  (Read 6902 times)

Pairings: What to do With Them?
« on: April 09, 2016, 06:51:06 PM »
Lol, I know, groan away :P. But I think we reaaally need to discuss his because its a sensitive subject for a lot of people. I know this isn't going to be everyone's favorite topic, but I think its important that creatives are at least on the same page as far as where to go and with what on a basic level so that they aren't bewildered by the differences in opinion that come later. How do we handle pairings in the series? Which pairings should get the ax? Which are in some serious need of revising?

A few that come to mind are..

Charmy x Saffron: Because a teenage girl trying to date a boy whose mentally regressed to the mind of a six year old is .. Kind of unnerving. Especially in something that's supposed to be a family friendly comic book. Charmy may have memories of Saffron, but only from when he was young. And IIRC, he wasn't in love with her back then. I can't help but feel like Saffron trying to resume a relationship with him now would feel like she was just taking advantage of him.  :o

Geoffrey x Hershey: I'll give Hershey some props, she at least has a role that allows her to do a bit more compared to some of the other pairings on the list, but by and large she's always been little more than a plot device. She has very little personality, and I felt like, as long as she stuck around Geoffrey had little incentive to interact much with the more relevant characters. Its not that I mind love triangles coming to an end, or even pairing characters with other to keep it from dragging back up. But the problem I've been noticing with characters like Hershey, is that they tend to alienate their previously, more relevant significant other from everybody else. After all Geoff's been through I'd hate for that to happen to him should she come back.

Elias x Meg: Not as bad as some of the other pairings. Meg at least doesn't alienate Elias from the other characters, but is it just me or does Elias have way more chemistry with Leeta? I like how Leeta at the very least challenges his authority and forces him to ask questions about himself. Whereas Meg kind of just ... sits there. Holding a baby. Doing nothing. At least Bunnie and Antoine had SOME form of chemistry. Beyond goo-goo eyes, she's really just window dressing. Its kind of the same problems I've had with pairings like Ash/Mina and to a lesser extent Geoffrey/Hershey. We've got a big enough main cast without leaving slots for useless characters. If Elias is going to be paired off, I think it should be at least with a more relevant character who does something. A budding romance between him and Leeta, could provide much needed character development to the wolf twins, as the steadily branch away from each other to become their own individuals.

Mina x Ash: The same problem I had with Geoffrey/Hershey but in spades. I was never really interested in them as a couple. Ash was little more than a relationship Gary Stu, whose role could have gone to someone more relevant. but after the NICOLE arc, and the harassment she endured, this ship started to become particularly annoying. Not that I don't understand where Mina was coming from, she had a point, but why didn't she bring this up with Sonic, Sally, Amy or some other Freedom Fighter first before broadcasting it to everyone? It became a rather glaring testimate towards the negative impact letting characters get too isolated from the main cast can have. I get it. No one wants the Sonic/Mina/Sally/Whatever love thing to come back. Letting Mina move on isn't even my problem! But did we really need to throw some new character in the mix just to do that? I don't "hate" Ash, with the right portrayl he can actually seem kind of interesting (Dan Drazen's version comes particularly to mind). But I also don't feel he does enough to exist the way he is as Mina's interest. So long as Ash exists, Mina, like Geoffrey's pretty much alienated from everyone in the main cast, and I'll be damned to have yet another NICOLE incident because she's too off in her own little world to deal with any of the others. He's taking up a role that could have been used by someone more relevant. If Archie wanted to give Mina a new love interest why not .. I dunno, introduce someone like Vector or Shadow? Vector and Mina have the same interests, and he's got a lot of the bravado Mina admired in Sonic. The Chaotix needed more supporting characters outside Knuckles, and Shadow? Well. He's got the 'badass cool' factor Mina seems to also like in guys. He rarely ever gets any screentime to interact with Sonic, and someone to tie him to the city would have been a good way to get him in on the action, as well as sparking more fuel to the ongoing rivalry everyone WANTED to see. Instead we get Ash. Who ... Doesn't really do anything aside from be the 'perfect' boyfriend for Mina.  ???
« Last Edit: April 09, 2016, 06:54:23 PM by Chielle »
Skype SN is Pearl_Chielle. 'Sup, Feel free ta buzz me! :p

Singapore Sling

Re: Pairings: What to do With Them?
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2016, 06:57:54 PM »
Don't call them "pairings."

Problem solved.

Offline Ian PK

Re: Pairings: What to do With Them?
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2016, 07:20:36 PM »
Saffron is more like Charmy's caretaker than his girlfriend nowadays, which shows that she still cares about him enough to not just abandon him because of his mental incapability, which is kind of touching. At least that's how I see it.

Offline faceclams

Re: Pairings: What to do With Them?
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2016, 07:26:05 PM »

Elias x Meg: Not as bad as some of the other pairings. Meg at least doesn't alienate Elias from the other characters, but is it just me or does Elias have way more chemistry with Leeta?


See, this is an example of this how subjective this topic is. You prefer Elias with Leeta, ten other people will have eleven other opinions. I won't invalidate your opinions, but I think the most we should interfere with the relationships is to remove pairings that are unarguably reprehensible. There are very few of those in the comic though.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2016, 07:27:59 PM by faceclams »

Re: Pairings: What to do With Them?
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2016, 07:30:31 PM »
The thing about the preboot is that there is such an inflated cast loaded with one-dimensional personalities that this sort of problem branches out to about a dozen truckloads of characters, and because it simply isn't possible to prioritize worthwhile development with that many characters in a relatively short comic, some characters will have to remain as little more than what they are.

As for Meg and Elias, they've been married for quite a while and, as you pointed out, already have a baby. It, to me at least, would seem out of character for someone like Elias to abandon his wife. Unless you want him to be a polygamist or something.
See, this is an example of this how subjective this topic is. You prefer Elias with Leeta, ten other people will have eleven other opinions. I won't invalidate your opinions, but I think the most we should interfere with the relationships is to remove pairings that are unarguably reprehensible. There are very few of those in the comic though.
Right as I post my reply, too XD
"Ya know Amy, anytime someone calls attention to the breaking of gender roles, it ultimately undermines the concept of gender equality by implying that this is an exception and not the status quo." -God

Offline Mobotropolis

Re: Pairings: What to do With Them?
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2016, 08:41:34 PM »
So ... instead of trying to fix characters you believe are irrelevant your idea is to have character pairings you don't like break up and pair them with " better " characters?

The only reason Leeta isn't just a footnote is because Ian did not do that. Leeta wasn't even supposed to be in the Secret Freedom Fighters. Agent Queen was originally going to be Hershey. Lyco and Leeta were given another chance because the stars aligned in their favor at the absolute last minute. Ian fixed the wolf twins and made them relevant again. The same could be done to just about any character.

Besides, I don't really like the idea of Elias divorcing Meg and abandoning his adoptive child. His parents would probably not like that idea, either. The Secret Freedom Fighters opened me up somewhat to Elias as a character in his own right. Not only would that Hard Left on the family that he was willing to abandon the crown for make me loathe his character but it would likely make me loathe whatever writer puts that into motion.

I think Ash, Meg, and Saffron could have all benefited from being in stories without their partner. Then they might have a chance to develop into their own character. The official writers had a tendency to always have these characters appear together which is something that we should probably avoid if we have any hope of fixing them.

Re: Pairings: What to do With Them?
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2016, 08:54:02 PM »
I think Ash, Meg, and Saffron could have all benefited from being in stories without their partner. Then they might have a chance to develop into their own character. The official writers had a tendency to always have these characters appear together which is something that we should probably avoid if we have any hope of fixing them.
Maybe I'm missing something as the rookie on the writing team, but why does the idea that  characters in a relationship absolutely have to be seperated from their partner to develop always get brought up in these situations? Couldn't they still develop with their partner around regardless?
"Ya know Amy, anytime someone calls attention to the breaking of gender roles, it ultimately undermines the concept of gender equality by implying that this is an exception and not the status quo." -God

Offline Mobotropolis

Re: Pairings: What to do With Them?
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2016, 10:07:27 PM »
Quote
Couldn't they still develop with their partner around regardless?

They could in theory, but it hasn't really been realized for any of the romantic pairings in practice except maybe Knuckles and Julie-Su. That only seemed to happen both because they were backed by writers who cared about each character and had ample page-space to develop them as individuals.

Instead of seeing that happen it feels more like a character is siloed and limited in their interactions once they hook up with someone. The writers tend to have the pair appear together and mostly interact with one another more so than the world around them. That's the kind of thing I wish the writers would avoid, and it seems that one way to avoid that is to just not have them appear together all the time.

I think the question to be asked here isn't really " how should we treat this couple? " and should be more " how do we develop Ash, Meg, Saffron, and Hershey as individuals who are relevant in their own right? ". Maybe if we answer that question the former will just fall into place.

Re: Pairings: What to do With Them?
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2016, 08:54:49 PM »
Ya'll have me writing walls again. Stahp.  :P

Saffron is more like Charmy's caretaker than his girlfriend nowadays, which shows that she still cares about him enough to not just abandon him because of his mental incapability, which is kind of touching. At least that's how I see it.

Its an explanation that helps you sleep at night. And I can respect that.  ;)

So ... instead of trying to fix characters you believe are irrelevant your idea is to have character pairings you don't like break up and pair them with " better " characters?

Not ... Quite. And I think dislike is a strong word to describe how I feel about some of these characters. Hell, I kind like Ash, even if I find his relationship with Mina presently unimpressive. And I feel with a bit of work I could probably really grow to like Saffron, too. I'll admit I'm curious about exploring new possibilities in pairings but I'm not particularly committed to any of my alternative examples in that I'm unyieldingly adamant that they happen. It was just an example of pairing characters in a way that was more economical to the story.

Now about fixing characters, it really depends. I'm all for it, but the question becomes, "is it realistic for them to be fixed while still in a relationship to a particular character the way they presently are"? With hundreds of other characters trying to get development at the same time? You actually managed to change my opinions somewhat on Bunnie/Antoine, so if you have some alternative ideas, please feel free to try and prove me wrong. But I listed these characters particularly because I have my doubts of it. They either restrict themselves and alienate the previously relevant character by being in a relationship, or in the unique case of Saffron and Meg the more relevant charcter restricts incentive for them from being anything more than an arm attachment.

Fortunately I thought of one possible solution: Why not make some of the less relevant characters like those on the list forced into the Legion chapters? Taking from Ian's playbook, while I found it OOC of Fiona to leave the FFs for of all characters Scourge I could see her as a villain and at least understood why he tried to give Fiona the role. It was a niche not as many characters were filling, and she wasn't growing as a character or offering anything to the Freedom Fighters by being in it. 'fixing' a character doesn't mean its always realistically feasible give them the development they need the way they are. Many of these characters don't have much in the way of a personal story because they're designed to focus soley around their partners. The protagonist side is already bloated enough, and instead of completely severing the pairings, you can actually keep the relationship status of most of the other characters in open-ended limbo.

It could provide the heroes new stakes and challenges they hadn't encountered before even with Beauregard or Matilda (Because Eggman doesn't know they're in any way connected to the main cast to try to use/manipulate them) and finally, we can give Eggman a more long term victory he could use in his favor. On the flip side it could also work in the heroes favor because now you may have characters you can rebuild the spy network with. Hershey was already doing stuff like this anyway, Meg's final fate was unknown after her home got invaded, and I think Ash's leadership skills would make him a very compelling grandmaster.


The only reason Leeta isn't just a footnote is because Ian did not do that. Leeta wasn't even supposed to be in the Secret Freedom Fighters. Agent Queen was originally going to be Hershey. Lyco and Leeta were given another chance because the stars aligned in their favor at the absolute last minute. Ian fixed the wolf twins and made them relevant again. The same could be done to just about any character.

Mnnnn, not quite. You're right that they were a last minute decision, but ultimately, I think they're among the handful who worked more in Ian's favor.

Now, before I go on, I will acknowledge there are still some glaring flaws I notice even with Leeta and Lyco from a conceptual stage. There are some notable differences between them. Leeta being the leader of the two and afraid of heights whereas Lyco's a bit more reserved and a follower but observant and willing to speak her mind when Leeta helps get the ball rolling for her. Its just that the way they interact with other characters seem.. rather interchangeable. They don't have any quirks to flesh out what individuality they may have, and that's been my problem with them from the start, even before this.

However, even saying that, I feel like its a problem that can be a lot more easily fixed and that they still have more to work with and offer the Secret Freedom Fighters compared to Hershey. One of the good calls on Ian's end was bringing in outsiders. Because while Hershey may have been the original slot, we've already seen how she works with Geoffrey and Elias. she would have just followed orders without adding much to the team dynamic. Leeta and Lyco are more inquisitive characters. Its part of what made them so adventurous and eager to see what was out there in the world, and they're able to confront their environment and Elias in ways few else are willing to. Particularly Leeta who is very assertive with him and where Elias fails.

Also, what about Lupe and the wolf pack? Leeta and Lyco at least provided more room for them to be more relevant later. What would Hershey bring to the table that they couldn't? I'm not saying you should or shouldn't add Hersh, but I disagree with doing it at the expense of the twins. Because Even as part of the secret Freedom Fighters, we go back to her only being around because of her significant other. Not because she'd be offering anything to the group as a supporting character. Leeta's at least expanding herself as a supporting character to Elias who talks sense and helps him grow. And hell, I could at least see Lyco's inquisitive curiosity giving her an interest and friendship with Silver.

Besides, I don't really like the idea of Elias divorcing Meg and abandoning his adoptive child.

Uhh.. who said he had to divorce Meg and abandon Alexis? There are plenty of ways you can break them up without compromising the child or at least provide tension to the relationship. Killing her is one way. Letting her get captured into a Legion chapter can also provide tension and a long distance relationship that can still move the story along. Maybe it could provide Meg the opportunity she needs to become more of a leader and partner/equal to Elias in her own right as opposed to just letting him do everything.


Maybe I'm missing something as the rookie on the writing team, but why does the idea that  characters in a relationship absolutely have to be seperated from their partner to develop always get brought up in these situations? Couldn't they still develop with their partner around regardless?

Sometimes. Note how I didn't add every pairing on the list. However when the characters are so molded around their partners to the point they alienate themselves and others and are not allowed to have an identity because of it is when I feel it becomes a problem.

.. Besides come on. Charmy's mentally six and Saffron's well in her teens. I don't think any amount character development in the world's gonna make that pairing pill easier to swallow.  :o
Skype SN is Pearl_Chielle. 'Sup, Feel free ta buzz me! :p

Offline Mobotropolis

Re: Pairings: What to do With Them?
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2016, 11:27:09 PM »
Quote
You actually managed to change my opinions somewhat on Bunnie/Antoine, so if you have some alternative ideas, please feel free to try and prove me wrong.

Sure thing.

I think that trying to find solutions and talk this through is a more productive use of time then trying to explain why having them suddenly become villains is bad or why the Fiona-thing is bad and ultimately didn't fix what was wrong with her character. The latter can probably be a whole topic in itself.

Megan Acorn: Megan is a commoner from a rural village who lost her first husband in the war with Eggman. She then married a guy who happens to be the heir to the throne of the free world. Megan fell in love with Elias while having no clue about his past or connections. She loves him -- but not necessarily all that he is tied to. It's overwhelming and scary for her and her newborn daughter. Megan has demonstrated that she has political intelligence (she was the reason Elias came back to claim the crown in the first place) but she's afraid to speak for herself. Unable to find common ground within her family she gravitates towards the Council of Acorn and becomes the first Acorn that the progressives on the Council are actually willing to listen to. Meanwhile Elias retakes his crown and decides to use this as an opportunity to ease the rift between his family and their people. Megan will act as a representative of the House Acorn for most things on his behalf. He will mostly be in charge of national security alongside his sister, the Freedom Fighters, and Secret Freedom Fighters.

il;dr version - Megan becomes the mouthpiece for the House Acorn on the Council. That frees Elias up to continue doing Secret Freedom Fighter stuff and helping the Freedom Fighters stuff that people seem to like seeing him do, anyway.

Ash Mongoose: I ... think that his character and relationship with Mina are both fine.

I guess if you insist on having him in a more active role I actually had something brewing around in my head that may be a good fit for him. The idea was sort of a mixture between Team Freedom and the Secret Freedom Fighters. Have some First Respondents who are essentially trained civilians that can help with crowd control and stall for time until help arrives. A good analogy would be that the Freedom Fighters are the Justice League and this group would be more like the local Police or Fire Department. They handle small (but still important) jobs that the League doesn't because the League is out there fighting super-villains.

Saffron Bee: This one's a toughie. It's tough in the sense that we don't really have a choice in what to do on the matter. Saffron cannot continue to be Charmy's girlfriend for a myriad of reasons. Since the pre-reboot Chaotix were also the second most bloated team on the book behind the post-reboot Freedom Fighters she likely could not remain on the Chaotix, either. I feel bad about dumping her but also feel like that's an inevitability.

So what do we do with Saffron? I'd open the floor up for non-death suggestions. I'd wager a guess and say that the two most popular suggestions would be to have her stay in Albion with Lien-da and Lara-Le or to have her stay with Charmy in the spun-off Chaotix.

Hershey St. John: Lost Hedgehog Tales will likely fill this blank.

Me personally? I was okay with Hershey being dead-dead since Geoffrey was likely going to be dead-dead at the end of the arch. If Geoffrey somehow survived committing outright treason against his people and being possessed by an ancient troll wizard then I may be able to think of a way to have them proceed from there if Lost Hedgehog Tales didn't provide those answers, but it seemed like a long-shot.

Re: Pairings: What to do With Them?
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2016, 01:37:45 PM »
My god. I tried. I really tried cutting this down as much as I could, and this was the best I could do. I'm so sorry!  :'(

I think that trying to find solutions and talk this through is a more productive use of time then trying to explain why having them suddenly become villains is bad or why the Fiona-thing is bad and ultimately didn't fix what was wrong with her character. The latter can probably be a whole topic in itself. 

LOL, oh Fiona. I had a lot I wanted to say about her, but I don't want this post getting too big.. Or bigger than it already is :-\. I guess you could make your own topic about her? But, because a lot of her derailment also included Scourge, you could also put your two cents here.

Though, why do the characters in question have to become antagonists willingly, though? Having characters switch alignment isn't bad so long as its portrayed in a way that's realistic. Like Beauregard, Matilda, Cassia and Clove, many legionnaires were and are good people forced in a bad situation. We have a bloated protagonist roster and almost no antagonists in the Legion ranks to give what Eggman does much meaning. Because there are barely any legionnaires to help make the consequences of Eggman's victories more personal to the heroes, you cheapen his impact, and what the heroes are fighting for because there aren't any losses they or the viewer care about.

At least with the characters I listed they'd be forced to survive by expanding their friendships and inner circles beyond just one character, and would have more of a reason to be in the story. And we wouldn't have to waste space creating new characters just fill Legion slots when we already have available ones for characters the protagonists care about. I don't think this is something that should be relegated soley to Bunnie or Mighty. Especially when Legionization is becoming such a global phenomenon and Eggman's invading New Mobotropolis constantly with the Death Egg. Its not feasible for every story to have Beuregard and Matilda's legion chapter around just to give an extra emotional pull. Or Mecha Sally (because we all know she's getting de-roboticized anyway). I feel like its inevitable he's going to get someone the FF know. It'd be a waste if Eggman was always written in to invade, but NEVER had anyone of importance getting captured.


il;dr version - Megan becomes the mouthpiece for the House Acorn on the Council. That frees Elias up to continue doing Secret Freedom Fighter stuff and helping the Freedom Fighters stuff that people seem to like seeing him do, anyway.


And here's where things get tricky. The only reason Elias is part of the secret Freedom Fighters is to get his crown back from Naugus. That's it. There wouldn't be anything for her to do regardless, because when Naugus is gone, Elias no longer has a reason to be on the team. If you're going to keep him on there as a member, you need a reason for him to get more personally involved. Give him new motivation, hence why I suggested the robots capture her during the invasion.

Besides if anyone's going to be a mouthpiece for the family, I get the feeling it'd be Alicia, whose got more experience in politics and is coming into her own as the family matriarch with Max's health declining.


Ash Mongoose: I ... think that his character and relationship with Mina are both fine.

But .. I thought we're supposed to be focusing on fixing him and giving him more of a way to be in the story as a character beyond just her. I think his character's okay, but could develop to be better, and I think his role is restricting him.

And I disagree, I don't think his relationship with Mina's fine, at least the way it is. Because its depriving them both of potential, alienating both characters and as a result has been causing too many problems for the main characters. His way of managing Mina isn't functional to keeping her involved in the story, and it wouldn't be so bad if she just stuck to her old bubblegum pop routine. But now she and her mom want to go SJW, and the NICOLE/ Naugus incident proves Mina NEEDS to be involved more with both her people and the freedom fighters on some level because her being too ignorant in either under her new image is just going to lead to her making more mistakes.

I hate to say it, but I kind of feel someone like Breezie would be better suited as a manager for Mina compared to him; at least in the sense she's a more functional vehicle to the story. A manager can juggle several clients at once and can host their own events. Ash's problem is that he's not outgoing or sensationalist enough to drive a plot and be a catalyst for getting civilians together and involved the way Breezie is. More importantly, Breezie's proven she can be a manager and easily expand herself beyond Mina post re-boot.


I guess if you insist on having him in a more active role I actually had something brewing around in my head that may be a good fit for him. The idea was sort of a mixture between Team Freedom and the Secret Freedom Fighters. Have some First Respondents who are essentially trained civilians that can help with crowd control and stall for time until help arrives. A good analogy would be that the Freedom Fighters are the Justice League and this group would be more like the local Police or Fire Department. They handle small (but still important) jobs that the League doesn't because the League is out there fighting super-villains.

Its not that I think he couldn't do what your saying. According to Mina's logs on the Archie website (prior to it all getting taken down) she and her band were sort of already doing this with the iron queen invasion. Its one of the reasons I thought he would make a good grandmaster because he's proven at least some capacity to take charge in times of crisis. The problem is, Its not something I feel Ash would benefit much from, or help actualize his potential.

Firstly, you have members of the council, The Secret Freedom Fighters who with more relevant characters could do this and would sooner get focused on...juuuust like what happened in the Iron Dominion arc and when Eggman invaded the city with Death Egg.  He has good leadership skills, and Ash could technically tag along, but with dominant personalities like potentially Hamlin, Rosemary, Penelope, Shard, Elias, Leeta and Lyco around to help throw her sister's weight, I don't think he's going to get very far. Because unless something happens to Mina, he's very withdrawn, and would probably not stand out as much among all those characters. Now maybe Mina could, and I'd sooner say perhaps Dr.Quack could benefit. Quack at least has medical expertise to have an area of authority in. And Mina has a better social understanding of the people's needs with the voice to rally the them in ways most don't. Hell, Mina could probably use this to eventually transition into the secret Freedom Fighters (Though, more in the sense she's a covert agent collecting intelligence, using her career as a front. she doesn't always have to be out doing a bunch of field missions). But Ash? I don't really see him going anywhere with this.

A grandmaster role, would give Ash more of a personal story and ability to develop his better qualities. Mina and Isabella now have more intimate ties to the cause, and would give the relationship between Ash/Mina more tension and a new level of intrigue as Mina's objective expands to saving the person she loves. Now, they could both potentially develop new love interests along the way (keyword: NEW not in any way involving Sonic), but never fully move on and officially date anyone else. Because unless or until Mina finds new characters to connect her to the antagonists, or Ash develops the same on the hero side, and into a more fully fledged character in his own right without her, it'd be unwise to completely sever their connection and make Ash irrelevant because Mina fully moves on and away from him. Ultimately, I'd choose never to fully solve it and leave it up to the readers to decide what will happen to their relationship in the end.


Saffron Bee: This one's a toughie. It's tough in the sense that we don't really have a choice in what to do on the matter. Saffron cannot continue to be Charmy's girlfriend for a myriad of reasons. Since the pre-reboot Chaotix were also the second most bloated team on the book behind the post-reboot Freedom Fighters she likely could not remain on the Chaotix, either. I feel bad about dumping her but also feel like that's an inevitability.

So what do we do with Saffron? I'd open the floor up for non-death suggestions. I'd wager a guess and say that the two most popular suggestions would be to have her stay in Albion with Lien-da and Lara-Le or to have her stay with Charmy in the spun-off Chaotix.

I'd probably have her stay with the legion in some way. Give the Chaotix stronger ties to what's going on with Robotnik (because let's face it, they don't care too much for Lein-da, and we can't rely solely on Matilda). And maybe have her spy and help from within? I'm not going to definitively say to shove her Lein-da's group because she could just as easily get captured in New Mobotropolis during an Eggman invasion and wind up somewhere else. it really depends on what civilian characters you ultimately decide to legionize as a whole.  Because she may ultimately prove to be a better supporting character to some characters better than others. Sort of like how I feel Antoine and Bunnie for obvious reasons would work better as spies and workers in Beauregard's chapter.

Hershey St. John: Lost Hedgehog Tales will likely fill this blank.

Me personally? I was okay with Hershey being dead-dead since Geoffrey was likely going to be dead-dead at the end of the arch. If Geoffrey somehow survived committing outright treason against his people and being possessed by an ancient troll wizard then I may be able to think of a way to have them proceed from there if Lost Hedgehog Tales didn't provide those answers, but it seemed like a long-shot.

Personally? I'd bring Geoffrey back,  because Silver needs more supporting characters, and Geoff so far feels like he'd play off him the best. That, and I feel Geoffrey finally has a supporting character of his own, a potential friend he could rely on who isn't Hershey (or Naugus. Not that that matters anymore), and I feel like Geoffrey could teach Silver a lot as a character. Plus, Geoffrey's someone Silver knows can keep a secret. I feel part of Geoffrey's redemption through Silver was to help convey Silver saving people's futures, one person at a time. Even when they don't feel they have a future to fight for, anymore. And to just kill him would waste part of Silver's more personal character development. It'd be kind of cool to make him a time traveling companion of Silver. Maybe with the hope of one day saving his wife? Its also possible that Geoffrey could become Silver's traveling companion, while resuming a relationship with Hershey in the legion chapter she was in on the down-low somewhat like how Ian originally intended; with Hershey giving them valuable information on the enemy to help on their quest.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2016, 01:44:42 PM by Chielle »
Skype SN is Pearl_Chielle. 'Sup, Feel free ta buzz me! :p

Offline GreenBlade64

Re: Pairings: What to do With Them?
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2016, 02:32:01 PM »
@Chielle What you said about Silver and Geoffrey as a duo would be pretty cool to see. I never even thought about that type of friendship before. I also agree with Geoffrey teaching Silver new things (sure as heck makes him a better mentor than Mogul...), along with Silver accepting Geoffrey as a friend. I'd forgive all else about Silver's repetitive mistakes if he learned to open up with someone like Geoffrey. :)
« Last Edit: April 11, 2016, 02:34:25 PM by GreenBlade64 »
"C'mon, step it up!" -Sonic, SSBB

Re: Pairings: What to do With Them?
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2016, 03:12:19 PM »
@Chielle What you said about Silver and Geoffrey as a duo would be pretty cool to see. I never even thought about that type of friendship before. I also agree with Geoffrey teaching Silver new things (sure as heck makes him a better mentor than Mogul...), along with Silver accepting Geoffrey as a friend. I'd forgive all else about Silver's repetitive mistakes if he learned to open up with someone like Geoffrey. :)

EDIT: I meant to say 'Naugus'. Whoops.

Well, Mogul's reformed in the future so its not like he'd be a bad teacher. And remember, Mogul was Naugus' superior at one point, so If anything, his future self may actually be the key in helping Silver find a way to save Geoffrey. So I wouldn't rule him out. If anything Future Mogul could be the mentor for both guys, and could help Geoffrey learn new moves he didn't under Naugus.

What I meant was, I feel both Silver and Geoffrey could probably both teach each other a lot about being heroes. Geoffrey, the seasoned veteran, teaching Silver strategy, and stepping in to keep him focused when Silver's brazen naivete towards a situation gets to his head. Silver being the kind of guy, who, while not as experienced as Geoffrey, has the heart and charisma to bring a team together, with a moral sense of justice to defuse when Geoffrey's temper or insensitivity prevents him from seeing the forest for the trees. Geoffrey can get so caught up in fulfilling an objective, he sometimes forgets to look at how his decisions affect other people the way Silver would. Not that Silver's a pushover, he can occasionally be a cocky/snarky little prick at times himself, but all the more reason for Geoffrey to occasionally pull the reigns and snap him back into focus.  I'd say that while Silver's the heart of a team, Geoffrey's the force who keeps people in line. And I wouldn't be surprised if Geoffrey intentionally did things that way to feign a good cop bad cop routine, similarly to how he and Hershey tricked Mina.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2016, 04:12:10 PM by Chielle »
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Offline GreenBlade64

Re: Pairings: What to do With Them?
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2016, 03:45:53 PM »
Well, Mogul's reformed in the future so its not like he'd be a bad teacher. And remember, Mogul was Naugus' superior at one point, so If anything, his future self may actually be the key in helping Silver find a way to save Geoffrey. So I wouldn't rule him out. If anything Future Mogul could be the mentor for both guys, and could help Geoffrey learn new moves he didn't under Mogul.

What I meant was, I feel both Silver and Geoffrey could probably both teach each other a lot about being heroes. Geoffrey, the seasoned veteran, teaching Silver strategy, and stepping in to keep him focused when Silver's brazen naivete towards a situation gets to his head. Silver being the kind of guy, who, while not as experienced as Geoffrey, has the heart and charisma to bring a team together, with a moral sense of justice to defuse when Geoffrey's temper or insensitivity prevents him from seeing the forest for the trees. Geoffrey can get so caught up in fulfilling an objective, he sometimes forgets to look at how his decisions affect other people the way Silver would. Not that Silver's a pushover, he can occasionally be a cocky/snarky little prick at times himself, but all the more reason for Geoffrey to occasionally pull the reigns and snap him back into focus.  I'd say that while Silver's the heart of a team, Geoffrey's the force who keeps people in line. And I wouldn't be surprised if Geoffrey intentionally did things that way to feign a good cop bad cop routine, similarly to how he and Hershey tricked Mina.

Well, that does make sense. I never said Mogul was an idiot. There's just something about Future Mogul that makes me question his morality code. How do we absolutely know for sure if he's not just using Silver for his own goals? How do we know if Mogul changed his ways? Even Edmund himself said that Mogul was always a "sad sack of lies". That should be a clue right there. I don't even care if Silver and Mogul are supposed to be "friends". Friends sometimes will betray you in the long run. It's basically this: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FalseFriend.

The way I see it, it seems like Mogul desperately wants Silver to outright murder the traitor (Sally), instead of "saving" the unwilling traitor from her doom (Mecha Sally). Even though Mogul knows about Sally, he wouldn't even care about her fate at all. That's how Mogul has always been towards Sonic and his friends. He's too weak and decrepit to do it himself because he wants someone younger and stronger (Silver) to do the dirty work for him. Mogul is a master manipulator. This is a known fact.

Okay, now I understand. Thank you for going more in-depth with that.
"C'mon, step it up!" -Sonic, SSBB

Offline Mobotropolis

Re: Pairings: What to do With Them?
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2016, 08:44:41 PM »
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I guess you could make your own topic about her?

I'm fairly sure there's a Fiona Topic already here.

Not that I want to stir that pot right now. The only reason it might be relevant is because of the Dr. Finitevus subplot leading up to 275 and this is already a source of tension for them. Depending on how that goes Fiona might try to leave him again, I guess, but yeah. That might be best for later.
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Though, why do the characters in question have to become antagonists willingly, though?

They don't. It's just that I don't want that to happen for many of the same reasons that the Fiona-thing should not have happened the way it did. My assessment is more from a writing standpoint than from an in-character standpoint. Making the characters villains doesn't magically make them better characters. It just shifts the problems that character has in another direction.

It doesn't even necessarily make them relevant characters depending on how Eggman chooses to utilize them. If he's going to send them off on assignment like he ultimately did with Lien-da and " Snively " then we might see them every couple of years. Is he going to dangle them in front of their loved ones faces? Why would he? Except for possibly Megan none of these characters are even remotely important to anyone except for their loved one.

That's ignoring that we're also in the middle of the biggest victim-dangling arch the book's ever seen. Do we really need to go back there so soon after the Mecha Sally arch?
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And we wouldn't have to waste space creating new characters just fill Legion slots when we already have available ones for characters the protagonists care about

Well ... we don't really need anymore Grandmasters Pre-Super Genesis Wave.

I guess you could argue that with Lien-da and Snively gone Eggman needed someone to boss around, but I figure Ian got rid of Lien-da and Snively so he could bring in Orbot and Cubot for that. In fact, I think Orbot and Cubot were introduced the very arch that this happened.
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It'd be a waste if Eggman was always written in to invade, but NEVER had anyone of importance getting captured.

Though I agree that not having significant causalities reduces the impact of events in the book, I also concede that this is the state of affairs for the official book. Maybe the writers here can throw Eggman a bit more of a bone from time to time. Ian's hands are tied, though.

To your point -- it's been said repeatedly that some mobians were legionized during the Iron Dominion Arch but we never found out who they were, what happened to them, or have they tried to make contact with them again. Since the tragedy didn't really impact anyone we could see significantly it's one of those things that can be quickly forgotten by the reader.
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Give him new motivation, hence why I suggested the robots capture her during the invasion.

... because being the King and leader of the free-mobian world is not motivation enough to be proactive? Elias has every reason to care. The protection of his Kingdom and its people is his responsibility now.

Again speaking from a personal opinion standpoint, if it took something personally happening to Megan to spur Elias into a more proactive action that wouldn't make him look brave. That'd make him look selfish because it suggests that he devalues everyone else around him.

Like. You know. Sally.

Elias has demonstrated a willinginess to do what he feels to be right and act against the will of the Council before. He also got in trouble for exactly that. Secret Freedom or something similar may have served its original purpose, but it could also allow him an outlet to do something more proactive than he could on the Council. He could continue being a hero in secret and openly supporting the Freedom Fighters in their endeavors.

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Besides if anyone's going to be a mouthpiece for the family, I get the feeling it'd be Alicia, whose got more experience in politics and is coming into her own as the family matriarch with Max's health declining.

Alicia doesn't have that type of power politically anymore.

I'm not really sure that'd what I want for her character, either. I feel that it really is time for the New Guard (Sally, Elias, and Megan) to take control of the Kingdom and for her to play a supporting role in that. I like her more as an advisor to her children than the dictator that Max was.
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But .. I thought we're supposed to be focusing on fixing him and giving him more of a way to be in the story as a character beyond just her.

Ash is a civilan. I'd like him to remain a civilan for reasons which make perfect sense to me. Mina and Ash work as civilains because they give us some namable folk to care about back home. They are different than most because they're not related to any of the other characters by blood like the Acorns, Rosie, or the onslaught of parents and parental figures.

I think it's very important to have named civillains in the book. It makes the world feel more diverse and less like a constant skirmish between superpowered heroes and superpowered mecha-villains. It also makes it feel more realistic since, realistically, not everyone can be a super powered hero or a super-villain.