18/12/18 - 13:15 PM


Author Topic: Pairings: What to do With Them?  (Read 7540 times)

Re: Pairings: What to do With Them?
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2016, 03:50:47 PM »
Again, I apologize in advance. You may want to grab a sandwich.

EDIT: HOLY run on sentences and grammatical errors Batman!

Making the characters villains doesn't magically make them better characters. It just shifts the problems that character has in another direction.

I agree. But I also explained what I felt a lot of the characters could gain from it and how it could positively work as a vehicle for the story.

It doesn't even necessarily make them relevant characters depending on how Eggman chooses to utilize them. If he's going to send them off on assignment like he ultimately did with Lien-da and " Snively " then we might see them every couple of years. Is he going to dangle them in front of their loved ones faces? Why would he? Except for possibly Megan none of these characters are even remotely important to anyone except for their loved one.

Mina's rallying a world-wide media campaign against him and he's connected to Isabella whose on the council. That's reason enough for Eggman to want to use Ash. And Saffron's connected to the Chaotix (though to her credit, she could probably disguise herself by adjusting her size).  Also, physically pitting them against loved ones isn't the only way he can use them, either. He can also use them for intel, using both their cybernetics and the safety of their chapter as insurance that they'll obey. Or perhaps enlist them in a dangerous mission without their knowledge for the purpose of baiting them against the Freedom Fighters. But that's only explaining how they could function only for Eggman. Its also possible for many of them to form coalitions and semi-Freedom Fighter groups inside Eggman's own chapters, engaging in missions to help Sonic and friends from within (potentially with the help of the Secret Freedom Fighters).

That's ignoring that we're also in the middle of the biggest victim-dangling arch the book's ever seen. Do we really need to go back there so soon after the Mecha Sally arch? 

I just gave a suggestion on when to do it. And this is a war, you can't just stop notable casualties from happening just because Sally got roboticized. Besides, the more loose ends you tie, the less likely people are going to regularly tune in to see what happens next. because now you've 'solved' everything they cared about. One of the things I'll admit Ian did well in Other M was that there were always lingering tensions in the story to keep the viewer guessing and eager to see more. And that's important, especially for people here aspiring to becoming professional writers in their own right. Because editors aren't going to cut them slack. You have a limited number of pages to pace your work get things rolling before they either ask you to adjust what you're doing or throw it out, entirely. And they do this because this is what readers do. They're aware they're part of a competitive market where the viewer's attention span is only going to drag for so long before quickly losing interest. Providing lingering tensions in some areas allows for there to still be things that quickly grip a person and keep them interested. Even among Sonic fans, with the reboot in full effect, we have a limited time before people's interest in the old world gradually gets phased out with what Ian's and the others are writing as it is.

Well ... we don't really need anymore Grandmasters Pre-Super Genesis Wave.


We have a few territories available, that either Eggman previously conquered, knows about or are pretty much open for the taking. So I'd consider perhaps a couple characters potentially taking the reigns in those regions (seriously, places like Angel Island are almost completely abandoned and open now with the Dingoes and Echidnas out the way. With little in the way of protection, It makes no sense why Eggman hasn't made a settlement there.)

And, I never said we needed everyone who got captured being a grandmaster.  Or that they should even start out that way. There's also room for characters to be lieutenants to a grandmaster, or even workers who form a coalition among themselves to try to perform missions for and as heroes from the inside while trying to maintain legion responsibilities (and avoid getting caught).

For example, what if we had a story with Hershey, where she required Silver and Geoffrey's help to take over Drago and Razorklaw's legion chapter with potentially another member of the Wolf pack? That's a whole story arc dedicated to Geoffrey and Hershey that could be played out in a way that makes them a lot more relevant now. Another source of intrigue are grandmasters plotting against each other, or their subordinates and vice versa. Like Razorclaw and Drago who hypothetically may plot against each other, as Hershey plans to take advantage of them both.

And while Eggman can't be defeated due to mandate, you can still build up and defeat lieutenants, and have Sonic claim back land. So introducing new chapters IMO, is kind of inevitable to keep the momentum of the series going.


... because being the King and leader of the free-mobian world is not motivation enough to be proactive?

It .. Wasn't before.  :-\


Again speaking from a personal opinion standpoint, if it took something personally happening to Megan to spur Elias into a more proactive action that wouldn't make him look brave. That'd make him look selfish because it suggests that he devalues everyone else around him.

Like. You know. Sally.

I think.. To a point? Maybe. But understand Elias didn't grow up with a strong relationshiwith the people the way his sister did, and needs her to sometimes understand where they're coming from. Part of his signature development as a king is learning to understand them. Elias works well as king from a writer's standpoint because he is flawed and has more areas to grow in. I'm not saying he doesn't care about them at all, but that he's not as attached to them. Otherwise he'd have risked his life for them the way Sally did ages ago.

I will disagree though that this means he devalues Sally. Sally "is" part of his crown/kingdom, so when I say he's trying to get the it back, she's pretty much part of the package. I'm not saying Elias would, or has no motivation to save her, or that as a secret Freedom Fighter, he wouldn't at least try.  But without the resources and protection the kingdom of Acorn provided, Elias doesn't have the means to go out and actively save his sister at the moment. And to just as importantly, keep her safe. The royal family were already being targeted by Eggman without trying to throw a distraught, recovering Sally into the mix when they couldn't adequately secure her. So it makes sense that he'd prioritize the city first.

So yeah, I think its perfectly in character for him to try and save Sally. Especially now that he's learning how to finally be a Freedom Fighter. But what I'm talking about are what motivations he'd have left after he gets his city and sister back? Being a king is already taxing and time consuming enough. After what happened to Sally especially, I can't see Elias going to risk the safety of the kingdom on the front lines unless under an extreme circumstance. That may sound selfish to people, but its practical for the protection of the people, and even in spite of seeing Sally's contributions,  he wouldn't have waited this long to find Harvey to organize in the first place if her reasons were good enough motivation for him. He'd need a more extreme circumstance the way Naugus provided to push him to go that far. And with him gone the Secret Freedom Fighters need their own rouges gallery. Dealing with Legionized allies would at least, put emphasis on the need for them to perform missions in secret.

Elias has demonstrated a willinginess to do what he feels to be right and act against the will of the Council before. He also got in trouble for exactly that.

Yes, but not as a Secret Freedom Fighter.  And I feel like what your saying would rely heavily on the council and himself constantly having disagreements radical enough for him to get into action ... Which doesn't seem practical. I mean, I could see if we had less morally upstanding members conspiring against the kingdom or something, but we don't. We'd have to ax members of the council off just to make way for a character who could provide that tension anyway.


Alicia doesn't have that type of power politically anymore.

And Meg's never had it though because she's not a queen. At least Alicia's a political veteran with more experience.


I'm not really sure that'd what I want for her character, either. I feel that it really is time for the New Guard (Sally, Elias, and Megan) to take control of the Kingdom and for her to play a supporting role in that.

I don't disagree that I could see her having a supporting role, but I don't think there's anything Meg can do right now that Alicia can't. At least with the Legion Meg could develop more political support and understanding of people in ways Alicia and Elias wouldn't be able to. And become something of an ambassador and political partner to her husband. And, if we're going to get technical? Alicia shouldn't be that much older physically or psychologically than Elias or Meg at this point. She was placed in suspended animation for about.. 20 years which would mean unlike her husband she should still be very fairly young; A very peculiar circumstance I'd really like to see writers explore with her, actually. She's in the unique disposition of being part of the old generation and the new one at the same time; a young mother whose family, role and life has effectively grown up without her through no choice of her own.


Ash is a civilan. I'd like him to remain a civilan for reasons which make perfect sense to me. Mina and Ash work as civilains because they give us some namable folk to care about back home. They are different than most because they're not related to any of the other characters by blood like the Acorns, Rosie, or the onslaught of parents and parental figures.

Mina, maybe. But Ash? The way he presently is? No. Let's be real here, hardly anyone cares about Ash. The few who vouch for him only want him in the story and with Mina to prevent another love triangle. And I grasp that concern. But we don't need Ash just for that. We have other, more relevant characters who can fill that slot if its a problem. And hell, we have Breezie who can do his job except better. Mina's developed to the point she can even be involved in other things like the Secret Freedom Fighters while bonding with NICOLE. So she can be relevant without having to interact too much with Sonic.

Pfft, that and. C'mon, seriously. No one in the writer's seat's going to bring that pairing/triangle back for anyone to even worry about it, anyway.  :P

But really, this? Wouldn't bother me as much if she just stuck to her little bubblegum pop kind of gig, But now that she's trying to be political, she needs a broader connection to the cast. Because the degree of alienation from everyone this relationship caused produced a clusterbomb of problems that far outweighed even the love triangle. And risks producing more. Because now, like a black hole, Mina's ignorance is dragging everyone into her crap. At this point Its not realistic for her to desire for a more political image and at the same time stay away from everyone just to revolve around her boyfirend. It isn't going to work and frankly, I don't think its worth it after all that's happened. At least as part of the legion Ash has more purpose to the story and can have room to grow as more of a leader with an intriguing relationship with Mina that moves the plot. And can get Mina more intimately involved with what's happening.


I think it's very important to have named civillains in the book. It makes the world feel more diverse and less like a constant skirmish between superpowered heroes and superpowered mecha-villains. It also makes it feel more realistic since, realistically, not everyone can be a super powered hero or a super-villain.


I don't think having a named civilian in a book's good enough though. Anyone can slap a name on a random background character, but we're not going to care about them if they don't have any impact to the story and characters. And Ash? .. Doesn't have much of any. He isn't offering anything to the heroes. And Mina's already kind of super-powered, so if you're looking for a more 'normal' character with no special abilities, she's ... probably not the best character to look towards for that anyway.

And I say this again, why not replace him with Breezie? She doesn't have any superpowers, can do his job better, is more popular and can work at getting the citizens more involved with the story as opposed to just being Mina-centric.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2016, 09:12:55 PM by Chielle »
Skype SN is Pearl_Chielle. 'Sup, Feel free ta buzz me! :p

Offline Mobotropolis

Re: Pairings: What to do With Them?
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2016, 09:03:45 PM »
You know? I think I'm going to bow out of this because I don't think we'll come to an agreement.  ;)

I'll just say that you are a very strong debater and this has been the most fun I've had when it comes to discussing Archie Sonic since I've come here. This is a tricky subject because the characters involved are so under-utilized that most of the " truths " that we have to go on are what we believe the motivations for various character's actions/their respective writers are.

I think we can agree, if anything, that we should do something to make these characters more interesting so the readers can be invested in them. How you would go about doing that would likely be a larger discussion with whoever's actually writing on the project. I would suggest throwing some ideas out there and putting them up to vote, personally.

But, you know, I'm not a writer.

Re: Pairings: What to do With Them?
« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2016, 09:35:12 PM »
You know? I think I'm going to bow out of this because I don't think we'll come to an agreement.  ;)

Hey, hey, don't get discouraged! Like Bunnie/Antoine You actually did manage to change my opinion on a few things, and got me to re-evaluate my opinion on what to do with certain characters. Previously, I wasn't sure what the heck to do with Hershey for example, but talking it out gave me a better idea on how to portray her while keeping Geoffrey/Hershey together. And now I realize even if Meg were kidnapped by the Legion, her relationship with Elias would have to remain on some level intact because she'd still represent a large motivating factor for him that the viewers can readily recognize. You can't just say, kill her off or make Elias fully move on and away from her because even under my example, she'd still  be one of Elias' key driving forces at the very least. 

I'll just say that you are a very strong debater and this has been the most fun I've had when it comes to discussing Archie Sonic since I've come here.

It helps that I'm sick atm with not alot to do.  :P Thanks, though! You're right, this was fun.

I think we can agree, if anything, that we should do something to make these characters more interesting so the readers can be invested in them. How you would go about doing that would likely be a larger discussion with whoever's actually writing on the project. I would suggest throwing some ideas out there and putting them up to vote, personally.

But, you know, I'm not a writer.

I'm sure they already know my stance on things, so I'm not gonna preach to the choir and bug em' about it. When its all said and done, its their decision, not mine. Personally? I have my doubts that they will, but if they use my ideas they'll use them. If not, they won't. I was planning on writing fanfiction anyway, so its no big deal.  :)
Skype SN is Pearl_Chielle. 'Sup, Feel free ta buzz me! :p

Re: Pairings: What to do With Them?
« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2016, 12:20:19 AM »
Okay, so. I know this is a double post, but I think it should be fine since its been well over a week.

I didn't plan on coming back here, but thanks to @SimonSoys, I kind of figured out a bit better what was ... Bugging me about some of these pairs that I couldn't quite put into words. Namely that, a lot of them lack chemistry, some in broader degrees than others.  Yes, they could be given a new role and have a new function, but people aren't just reading to see characters be plot devices. The team dynamic or even pairing dynamic, and how their personalities foil to emphasize their defining characteristics is just as important.

Although my opinions are steadily changing towards Geoffrey/Hershey, I'm still on the fence with a lot of the others.

With Saffron, for obvious reasons her relationship with Charmy can't continue, but I'm dubious she even has much of a place on the Chaotix, either.

I'm sure she would be very good at say, doing secretarial work or being a medic for the team,. After thinking it over, its not that I couldn't see her even having a technical function to the team. But that it wouldn't change that as a personality, she doesn't offer very much to the Chaotix or to Charmy in a way that's unique and can foil their characterizations. I learned that, the reason why I was curious about the idea of legionizing her wasn't just to give the team motivation against Eggman or even a loss, but that her compassion as a character could spread a lot farther as part of an organization of morally conflicted people struggling to survive and live with themselves and what they're forced to do everyday.

Meg's problem I'm realizing is that, unlike Ash, and even compared to Hershey and Saffron she's.. Pretty much a blank-slate outside of the obligatory characteristics she'd require as a 'supportive lover'. She can't highlight who Elias is as a character or use her experiences to help him grow as a character/ruler, because she ... Doesn't HAVE a personality to offer much of anything. She's just designed to be an agreeable character whose just 'there'. And if that was room enough for Ian to almost kill Saffron, despite her doing and having more potential, I don't see why she's still around. Yes, we could give her more things to do. But she's such a bland, and blank character it begs the question if its even worth it, when there's so little to her no one would care regardless. And there are so many characters we already have with more potential who need fixing and spotlight as it is (ex: Ash, Saffron, Hershey, the Wolf twins and other members of the main cast).

Ash is probably the most salvageable, but I feel like so long as he's with Mina? Particularly the way he is, he's just a relationship Gary-Stu whose sole purpose is to unrealistically exist for her. Its not that I mind a significant other being supportive, but the way it portrayed with him. The same problem I have with the FF, I have with .. "present" Ash/Mina because there's no chemistry between them, as there is nothing between them contrasts strong enough to emphasize who they are through their differences.  What differences do exist between them, I feel, become irrelevant when Ash is too consumed with protecting Mina, supporting/agreeing and being her stereotypically perfect boyfriend. So if anything, they dilute and oversimplify each other's characterization the way they are, my leading criticism.

Worse, because Ash is written to be so hyped as be this idealized (mary-sue) love interest, Mina has no incentive to expand herself and get friendships with others, and as someone fighting for social justice she needs more characters in her group that will offer diverse perspectives to address important issues. And Ash doesn't offer that. Not the way he is.  He's good as a plot device but that's it. But part of me still likes him and feels he has the potential to be more. So I was thinking the solution I was looking for was to put a different spin of Ash's love and protectiveness towards Mina by presenting it in a different way through his newer set of experiences he has in the legion. Aside from making him his own character who can focus more on his own his talents and uniqueness as a leader, he could now become a mentor, someone who helps teach Mina more about how to be a leader through his own experiences, as opposed to mollycoddling her insecurities. And while he'd be harder on her, it would only be because he cares to see her succeed and survive as she advances her career against Eggman. I just don't see the need for him as her manager when he's just a plot device, and Breezie can do more with the role.  :-\
Skype SN is Pearl_Chielle. 'Sup, Feel free ta buzz me! :p

Offline SimonSoys

Re: Pairings: What to do With Them?
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2016, 03:29:52 PM »
By all accounts I think Meg should've been a neat character. She's got all the ingredients for someone in a unique circumstance and an unlikely perspective who can contribute in unexpected ways.

She's not from a royal background, she had a kid from a previous engagement before Elias, and she's not even from Mobotropolis or Knothole. And yet she's here, with this father-in-law who's disappointed in his son and (probably) resents her and her child, a husband who's the king of a city she's not familiar with, trying to dress the part of a queen which she's clearly not qualified for and hardly anyone even wants her to be.

While Elias was struggling to live up to his family legacy, Meg could've had her own struggle going on where she's trying to do her best in a role that is the exact OPPOSITE of being her birthright. Having a conflict between "no one wants you or your kid here, go back to where you came from" and "you're here now, you have this opportunity, make the best of it to help others."

I think she would've been a great character and a great partner character for Elias if they had ever bothered to give her a voice. It especially would've been nice to see her interact with Alicia or Max, or even Sally, once, ever.

Re: Pairings: What to do With Them?
« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2016, 09:31:29 PM »
By all accounts I think Meg should've been a neat character. She's got all the ingredients for someone in a unique circumstance and an unlikely perspective who can contribute in unexpected ways.

She's not from a royal background, she had a kid from a previous engagement before Elias, and she's not even from Mobotropolis or Knothole. And yet she's here, with this father-in-law who's disappointed in his son and (probably) resents her and her child, a husband who's the king of a city she's not familiar with, trying to dress the part of a queen which she's clearly not qualified for and hardly anyone even wants her to be.

While Elias was struggling to live up to his family legacy, Meg could've had her own struggle going on where she's trying to do her best in a role that is the exact OPPOSITE of being her birthright. Having a conflict between "no one wants you or your kid here, go back to where you came from" and "you're here now, you have this opportunity, make the best of it to help others."

I think she would've been a great character and a great partner character for Elias if they had ever bothered to give her a voice. It especially would've been nice to see her interact with Alicia or Max, or even Sally, once, ever.

Your right! Those really are some interesting ideas. I could see a lot of people resenting her, particularly nobles who have serviced the kingdom for years only for some no-named newcomer to drop in and marry King Elias. But ... I realize that's an interesting 'circumstance'. And just because a circumstance is really good, doesn't mean the character is interesting. The amount of time we'd waste making a template out of her, the story could just give her role to someone else whose more put together and can offer more, imo.

But I think what really makes Meg kind of Sueish in particular is how the sense of the story kind of twists just to give her what she had. She's 'nice' and 'caring', but .. so what? I'm sure lot's of girls in the community Elias lived in were kind, supportive people, too. Especially since he was attractive and got a lot of attention by girls back at home. What made Meg so unique that he'd want to commit to her after such little time? With a kid from someone else? There's nothing about her that really stands out as a personality. She's nice and supportive but that's not something exclusive to her. We have plenty of characters who are supportive of Elias. His family, The Freedom Fighters, Harvey Who, Secret Freedom Fighters, random citizens etc.

Not that I'm a particular shipper for this, but I think the main reason I highlighted Leeta in particular, was because she was an example of a character who while supportive, expressed that in a way that was unique from most people.  She nor even to a lesser extent Lyco dance around laying out Elias' flaws, and treat him more like an equal as opposed to most who treat Elias as their superior. Their support is tougher than most, but its a new direction that he needed to survive.

Meanwhile Meg kind of just read like a plot device to resolve the question of Sally's inheritance to the throne. And that's as far as Karl thought her through.  :-\

...Crap this actually just gave me an idea on what to do with her! *scribbles notes*
Skype SN is Pearl_Chielle. 'Sup, Feel free ta buzz me! :p

Offline Miru

Re: Pairings: What to do With Them?
« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2016, 12:49:07 AM »
Yeah, I'm all for Ash becoming a villain and hopefully dying after. Never liked the REMOVED. 25 years later told me something horrible would happen to this parasite of a character. I like that Megan backstory too.

MOD EDIT: PLEASE AVOID MEAN SPIRITED CURSING.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2016, 08:41:08 AM by GentlemanX »

Offline Fandom cop

Re: Pairings: What to do With Them?
« Reply #22 on: May 27, 2016, 06:17:55 AM »
Sorry if someone asked this already asked this but what should we do with Tails x Mina if we decide to make it cannon.

Re: Pairings: What to do With Them?
« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2016, 12:59:16 PM »
Yeah, that question about Tails x Mina was always boggling my mind.

Re: Pairings: What to do With Them?
« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2016, 02:12:36 PM »
That pairing came out of nowhere and was a strange choice. As we all know that in the present Tails isn't romantically interested in Mina, they're just friends but a lot can happen in 25 years and something tells me that Ash isn't alive but it's a possible future. Ash isn't a jerk to Mina, he cares so much about her, so I don't see the two breaking up. They're quite a happy couple in the present. But it still boggles my mind how Tails and Mina got together in the future.


"ROW ROW FIGHT THE POWER!"

Re: Pairings: What to do With Them?
« Reply #25 on: September 20, 2016, 09:34:24 PM »
Isn't there a rule against talking about this?

Offline The Shadow Imperator

Re: Pairings: What to do With Them?
« Reply #26 on: September 20, 2016, 09:54:18 PM »
Isn't there a rule against talking about this?

No.

Quote from: The Rules
Itís not that you canít have a discussion about these things; just make sure you think about how you post when youíre discussing such prickly topics.

Re: Pairings: What to do With Them?
« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2016, 04:47:24 PM »
Unexpected Pairing: Tails X Vanilla

Offline Ian PK

Re: Pairings: What to do With Them?
« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2016, 05:07:51 PM »
Unexpected Pairing: Tails X Vanilla
Ummm... Tails is 8 and Vanilla's, like, 20.

Offline RaceProUK

Re: Pairings: What to do With Them?
« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2016, 06:47:44 PM »
Vanilla's, like, 20.
She's easily older than that: she has a six-year-old daughter.